Menachos 80
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This episode of Daf Yomi with Dovid Charnowitz explores the intricate halachic discussions surrounding the Toda sacrifice, focusing on the status of offspring (Vlad), substitutes (Chilufa), and invalid exchanges (Tmura) in relation to the requirement of bringing lechem (meal offering). The Gemara examines whether these secondary animals can be brought with lechem, particularly when the original animal is lost and replaced. A central debate arises around Rav Yehonason's chiddush that one can use the offspring of a Toda (Vlad Toda) as the primary sacrifice, even though it is considered 'shvach hekdesh' (secondary sanctity). This challenges Shmuel's broader principle that any animal subject to 'mesa' (death) cannot be used for a Toda with lechem. The discussion delves into the nature of kedusha, the concept of 'achrayis' (backup), and the distinction between Toda and Chatas, ultimately concluding that the possibility of an extra Toda allows for a more flexible halachic framework, unlike Chatas where such extras are not permitted. The episode concludes with a detailed analysis of how multiple lost and replaced animals affect the status of lechem and the chain of chilufin. Key takeaways include: 1) The offspring of a Toda can fulfill the obligation even if it is secondary sanctity (shvach hekdesh), 2) Only the animal designated as the primary Toda receives lechem, regardless of which one is brought first, 3) A third replacement animal is considered a new Toda if the chain of chilufin is broken, 4) Lechem can be substituted if lost, but a lost Toda cannot be replaced with a new one if lechem is already set aside, 5) Extra Toda sacrifices are permitted, unlike Chatas, which explains the differing halachic applications, 6) The concept of 'achrayis' creates a unique kedusha that persists even if not used, 7) Shmuel’s sweeping statement about Toda not requiring lechem is rejected due to the existence of valid cases where it does, and 8) The koyach (power) of chilufin is limited to one generation, preventing a chain of chilufin of chilufin.
The offspring (Vlad) of a Toda can be used to fulfill the obligation, even though it is secondary sanctity (shvach hekdesh).
Only the animal designated as the primary Toda receives lechem, regardless of which one is brought first.
A third replacement animal is considered a new Toda if the chain of chilufin is broken.
Lechem can be substituted if lost, but a lost Toda cannot be replaced with a new one if lechem is already set aside.
Extra Toda sacrifices are permitted, unlike Chatas, which explains differing halachic applications.
…and 3 more takeaways available in PodZeus
Introduction to Toda Sacrifice and Secondary Animals
The episode begins with a review of the Mishnah in Menachos 80, introducing the cases of Vlad Toda, Chilufa Toda, and Tmura Toda. The discussion centers on whether these secondary animals require lechem (meal offering) when brought as a Toda sacrifice.
The Chiddush of Rav Yehonason: Using the Vlad Toda
“You could use the vlad hektish. You could be miskaper with the vlad hektish.”
Shmuel's Principle and Its Limitations
Shmuel's sweeping statement that any animal subject to 'mesa' (death) cannot be used for a Toda with lechem is examined. The Gemara argues that this principle does not hold in the case of Vlad Toda, as it is not subject to mesa in the same way.
The Nature of Kedusha and 'Achrayis'
The episode explores the concept of 'achrayis' (backup) and how it creates a unique kedusha that persists even if not used. The discussion includes the view of the Besham Rav that this is a 'kedushas vada'i b'teris zacharias' — a new, independent sanctity.
The Chain of Chilufin and the Third Replacement
“The third one is like a brand new toida.”
“You could use the vlad hektish. You could be miskaper with the vlad hektish.”
“The third one is like a brand new toida.”
“There is a concept of bringing an extra toida. There's no concept of bringing an extra chatas.”
Host
Dovid Charnowitz
person
Gemara
other
Toda
other
Chatas
other
Lechem
other
Shmuel
person
Rava
person
Abaya
person
Rav Yehonason
person
Vlad
other
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