Old and New Rights | Interview: George Hawley

In this deep-dive conversation on The Remnant Podcast, Jonah Goldberg interviews political scientist George Hawley about the evolution of American conservatism, the myth of fusionism, and the recurring phenomenon of 'new rights' throughout history. Hawley challenges the common narrative that fusionism was merely a political compromise between libertarians and traditionalists, arguing instead that Frank Meyer saw liberty and virtue as mutually reinforcing—essential for both a free and a virtuous society. The discussion expands to a broader critique of ideological labels, with Hawley distinguishing between 'right-wing' as a broad, heterogeneous category and 'conservatism' as context-dependent and historically contingent. He traces the lineage of 'new rights' from the 1940s National Review movement through the neoconservatives, the Moral Majority, and today’s post-liberal, nationalist, and MAGA coalitions, arguing that each is less novel than claimed. A central theme is the enduring tension between populism and conservatism: while populism promises unity and the will of the people, it risks enabling Caesarism and undermining deliberative democracy. Hawley warns that the abandonment of constitutional principles—federalism, separation of powers, and states’ rights—by the modern right, especially under Trump, represents a dangerous departure from the tradition of American conservatism. He also critiques the conservative rejection of identity politics as a 'noble lie,' noting that identity has always been central to political coalitions, even if modern partisanship has become a core identity in itself. The episode concludes with a reflection on the intellectual history of conservatism, questioning the dominance of the National Review-centric narrative and calling for a more inclusive, socially grounded understanding of the movement’s prehistory.