Trump Voters Say 'Nope' to the Pope (with Jonathan V. Last)
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In this episode of The Bulwark's Focus Group podcast, host Sarah Longwell and guest Jonathan V. Last explore the complex relationship between Catholic identity and political ideology among 2024 Trump and Harris voters. The discussion centers on a recent escalation in tensions between Donald Trump and Pope Leo, including Trump’s controversial Truth Social post portraying himself as Jesus. The episode features raw audio from focus groups revealing how Catholic voters navigate contradictions in their faith and politics. Trump-supporting Catholics often emphasize a strict separation between religion and politics, using it as a rationalization to support Trump despite doctrinal disagreements—especially on immigration and LGBTQ+ rights—while still claiming to be pro-life. In contrast, Harris-supporting Catholics tend to see faith and politics as deeply intertwined, often criticizing the Church’s political influence when it conflicts with progressive values like social justice and compassion. The episode highlights a significant shift: abortion, once the defining divide, is now less central, with immigration and moral inclusivity becoming the new fault lines. Both groups engage in selective adherence to Church teachings, but the Trump voters frame their Catholicism more as a personal identity or 'badge,' while the Harris voters see it as a lived ethic guiding daily life and social responsibility.
Catholic voters on both sides of the political spectrum practice selective adherence to Church doctrine, particularly on abortion and immigration, revealing a 'cafeteria Catholicism' that defies strict doctrinal consistency.
The central divide among Catholics has shifted from abortion to immigration and inclusivity, with conservative Catholics increasingly rejecting the Church's call to welcome immigrants.
Trump-supporting Catholics often justify their political choices by claiming a strict separation of church and state, using it as a framework to reconcile faith with support for Trump.
Harris-supporting Catholics are more likely to view faith as a lived ethic that informs their political values, especially around compassion, social justice, and opposition to anti-LGBTQ+ or anti-immigrant policies.
The Pope’s consistent moral messaging—especially on war and peace—is often dismissed by critics as political, but is actually a long-standing, unchanging feature of papal teaching.
The Pope, Trump, and the Catholic Identity Crisis
The episode opens with a discussion of Donald Trump’s recent feud with Pope Leo, including his Truth Social post portraying himself as Jesus. Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last set the stage for a deeper exploration of how Catholic voters reconcile their faith with political allegiance.
Understanding Catholic Doctrine: Infallibility and the Pope’s Role
“The Pope is infallible on matters of dogma. But it's not infallible about everything else. Sorry, what's dogma? The most foundational beliefs of the church. Like Mary was conceived without sin.”
Trump Voters: Faith as Identity, Not Practice
“It's much more abstract and much more about like this is a jersey that I put on.”
Harris Voters: Faith as Ethic, Politics as Extension of Morality
“I get so disappointed when I find that our most recent abortion ban in Florida was lobbied for by multiple Catholic organizations across the state, and it's just so disappointing to see people who claim to be leaders of my religion advocating to take rights away from people.”
The Shifting Fault Lines: From Abortion to Immigration
The episode concludes with a reflection on how the political divide among Catholics has evolved. Abortion is no longer the primary wedge; instead, the debate over immigration and inclusivity has become the new battleground, revealing a deeper cultural and theological rift.
“I get so disappointed when I find that our most recent abortion ban in Florida was lobbied for by multiple Catholic organizations across the state, and it's just so disappointing to see people who claim to be leaders of my religion advocating to take rights away from people.”
“Jesus was kind of like the classic progressive figure, and it's just unfortunate that some parishes have twisted that around and gone a different direction.”
“The Pope is infallible on matters of dogma. But it's not infallible about everything else. Sorry, what's dogma? The most foundational beliefs of the church. Like Mary was conceived without sin.”
Host
Guest
Jonathan V. Last
person
Sarah Longwell
person
Pope Leo
person
Donald Trump
person
Kamala Harris
person
Jesus
person
The Bulwark
organization
Pete Hegseth
person
New Testament
other
Samuel Jackson
person
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