Tom Holland and Mary Harrington: The Rise and Reach of Rome

In this richly layered conversation, historian Tom Holland and Mary Harrington explore the enduring fascination with Rome not as a mere historical empire, but as a living myth that continues to shape Western identity, politics, and culture. Holland argues that Rome's true legacy lies in its paradoxical blend of violent pacification and inclusive citizenship, exemplified by the Pax Romana and Hadrian's Wall—less a defensive barrier than a symbolic assertion of superiority. He challenges Edward Gibbon’s view that Christianity doomed Rome, instead asserting that Christianity was the ideological cement that held the fractured empire together in late antiquity. The discussion expands to examine how Rome’s model of empire influenced not only the United States and France but also the Persian and Islamic worlds, whose concepts of good vs. evil, time as linear, and universal religion were deeply shaped by Persian thought. Holland emphasizes that the West’s current ideological framework—especially the notion of human rights—is not neutral but rooted in a post-Christian, Christian-infused worldview that is now under strain. He traces this evolution from the 11th-century papal revolution to the Reformation, Enlightenment, and modern movements like Woke, arguing that Western history is a continuous cycle of reformations driven by a deep-seated desire for purity. The conversation concludes with reflections on storytelling as a vital historical tool, the dangers of ideological overreach, and cautious optimism in the face of collapse—finding hope in modern medical advances and the resilience of human imagination. Key takeaways include: 1) Rome’s power lay not in conquest alone but in the myth of civilization it cultivated; 2) Christianity did not end Rome—it saved it by providing a unifying ideology; 3) the modern West’s values, including human rights, are rooted in Christian theology, not secular neutrality; 4) the 11th century was a revolutionary turning point that birthed the modern Western world; 5) the current era of ideological upheaval is part of an endless cycle of reformations; 6) storytelling is essential to understanding history, as it reveals contingency and multiplicity of perspective; 7) we are living through the death of a post-war, post-Christian idealism; 8) even in crisis, modern medicine and human ingenuity offer real grounds for hope.