Jonathan Pageau and Mary Harrington: Reality in a Disenchanted Age
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In this profound conversation, Mary Harrington and Jonathan Pageau explore the resurgence of the symbolic and narrative dimensions in a world increasingly alienated by modern scientific cosmology and postmodern skepticism. Pageau, an icon carver and thinker rooted in Orthodox Christianity, traces his intellectual journey from Protestantism and fine art to a deep engagement with medieval cosmology—a worldview that sees the earth as the center of meaning, not just space. He argues that modernity's alienating perspective, which treats humans as detached observers in a mechanical universe, has created a spiritual vacuum. This vacuum, he contends, is now being filled by a powerful return of the symbolic, evident in internet memes, religious iconography, and collective cultural movements like the 'gargoyle' phenomenon, where oppositional figures serve as apotropaic (protective) forces. The episode examines how postmodernism, despite its critique of narrative, inadvertently reveals the necessity of stories, and how conservatives have failed by not reclaiming narrative authority. The conversation culminates in a vision of a hopeful future: not a homogenized globalist utopia, but a fractal order where nations, identities, and individuals coexist in love and service to a transcendent truth, as envisioned in the Book of Revelation. Pageau and Harrington conclude that the Christian story—rooted in both universal love and particular identity—offers the most coherent and life-giving narrative for our time.
The modern scientific worldview alienates us by positioning us as detached observers; the medieval worldview sees us as participants in a meaningful cosmos.
Narrative is not a threat but a necessity—conservatives must reclaim story-making power, not just react to others' narratives.
Memes and internet culture function as modern 'apotropaic' symbols, serving as chaos weapons and cultural shields, but are not icons—icons are encounters with real, symbolic persons.
The return of the symbolic is real and visible: terms like 'egregore' signal a collective intelligence that cannot be reduced to mere emergent behavior.
The Christian vision of the eschaton is not a globalist melting pot but a city where nations bring their crowns to God—unity in difference, identity in service.
…and 2 more takeaways available in PodZeus
The Narrative Crisis of Modern Conservatism
“Because conservatives have ignored the narrative problem, they've in some ways been losing non-stop because they are in a story that they don't totally understand. And they keep complaining about how they keep losing, but the reason is because they don't understand that they're not setting the story. They're just a character in someone else's story.”
Medieval Cosmology and the Alienation of Modernity
Pageau explains how medieval thought integrated faith, philosophy, and politics into a unified worldview where the earth was the center of meaning. In contrast, modern cosmology—especially Galilean science—creates a detached, alienating perspective that undermines human experience.
Postmodernism as a Prophet of the Margin
“It's not just that the laws of physics are there. In a sense, the symbolic dimension is just as real. Yeah, there's a narrative. There's a true narrative reality and a true symbolic order. And people can see it. And actually I can point to things that are happening in the symbolic world and say, no, that's a thing. And other people will be able to see it too.”
The Gargoyle and the Apotropaic Power of Memes
“If only memes weren't always ugly, was the thought I had while I was walking through the forest. And then I thought to myself, congratulations, Mary, you just invented religious icons.”
Memes as Rhetorical Commonplaces, Not Icons
Pageau distinguishes memes from icons: memes are flexible, adaptable clusters of meaning (like rhetorical topoi or adages), not encounters with real symbolic persons. They function as cultural triggers, not sacred representations.
“Even in the eschaton, we don't have this weird globalist vision of a big, huge mass of people that have no identity. Even in the eschaton, that's not real because first of all, it's impossible and it ultimately leads to tyranny if you try to do something like that.”
“Because conservatives have ignored the narrative problem, they've in some ways been losing non-stop because they are in a story that they don't totally understand. And they keep complaining about how they keep losing, but the reason is because they don't understand that they're not setting the story. They're just a character in someone else's story.”
“And I think, you know, it's a first step. And obviously, I kind of understand why people went towards egregore. But at some point, we're going to have to use the right words and say gods and angels, you know, because those... those egregores that they talk about. You're still leaving space for the possibility that there's no there there?”
Host
Guest
Jonathan Pageau
person
Mary Harrington
person
World War II
other
Socrates in the City
media
C.S. Lewis
person
Jacques Derrida
person
Book of Revelation
other
Owen Barfield
person
Amelia
other
Egregore
other
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