What Next - You Come at the Pope, You Best Not Miss

This episode of Slate's 'What Next' explores the escalating public clash between Pope Leo XIV, the first American pope, and President Donald Trump, framed as a cultural and spiritual battle between peace and authoritarianism. Host Mary Harris interviews Christopher Hale, author of the Substack 'Letters from Leo,' who provides deep context on how Pope Leo’s progressive rhetoric—particularly his denunciations of war, imperialism, and U.S. foreign policy—has directly challenged Trump’s administration. The tension intensified after Trump posted an AI-generated image of himself as Jesus, a move interpreted as both a power grab and a sign of insecurity. Hale argues that the Pope’s quiet but firm moral authority, rooted in religious doctrine rather than political posturing, represents a counterforce to MAGA ideology. The episode traces the Vatican’s growing diplomatic friction with Washington, including a controversial Pentagon meeting where the term 'Avignon papacy' was reportedly used—a historical reference to papal captivity under French control—signaling a breakdown in relations. Polling data reveals a sharp decline in Catholic support for Trump, especially among white Catholics, highlighting a growing rift within the MAGA coalition. The Pope’s strategy, focused on peace and moral leadership, contrasts sharply with Trump’s combative, performative style, suggesting a deeper ideological war over the soul of American Christianity and democracy. Key takeaways include: 1) Pope Leo XIV is using religious authority to challenge U.S. militarism, not political power; 2) Trump’s attacks on the Pope are less about theology and more about losing control over narrative and influence; 3) The Vatican’s diplomatic pushback—such as the Bishops’ Committee statement after J.D. Vance’s remarks—signals a formal defense of papal authority; 4) The decline in Catholic support for Trump reflects a generational and doctrinal shift; 5) The Pope’s 'turn the other cheek' approach is not weakness but strategic moral subversion; 6) The conflict is a distraction from real crises in the economy and war; 7) A growing evangelical-Catholic divide on the right reveals deeper fractures in the MAGA movement; 8) The Pope’s actions may position him as a Nobel Peace Prize contender, a symbolic victory over authoritarianism.