To Gain Customer—and Employee—Loyalty, Go Beyond Good Enough

In this episode of HBR IdeaCast, host Adi Ignatius speaks with Marcus Buckingham, author of the new book *Design Love In: How to Unleash the Most Powerful Force in Business*, about the transformative power of designing extreme positive experiences to drive customer and employee loyalty. Buckingham argues that most companies fail because they focus on processes and systems rather than the human experience, which is the true driver of sustainable behavior change. He emphasizes that only 'fives'—experiences that evoke genuine love—predict long-term loyalty and productivity, while 'fours' and below do not. Drawing on data and examples from Disney, Rivian, and Chick-fil-A, he illustrates how companies can intentionally design experiences that help people feel more fully themselves, leading to emotional connection and lasting engagement. The conversation also explores the role of AI, cautioning that while it can enhance capability, it cannot create love because it lacks empathy and human connection. Buckingham concludes with practical steps: stop designing for systems, start designing for the full human journey—before, during, and after an experience—and clarify your company’s identity to build trust and belonging.